Showing posts with label devaluation. Show all posts
Showing posts with label devaluation. Show all posts

September 7, 2015

Dear Narcissist Problems: "Suddenly Slapped"


Dear Narcissist Problems,

Hello, I'm needing some advice concerning my wife. After much reading and honest thought, I believe she may be somewhere on the spectrum of NPD. I've been hit in the face multiple times, hard (to which she says, "it was a slap, my hand was opened")....well, I'm a 200# man, and my ears were ringing. She changes into someone else when she's mad. After following her around the country for her PhD (in psychology no less), supporting her all the way, only to have her abandon her dissertation at the last minute, and blame me for her quitting. Recently I believe that we've entered into the devaluation/discard phases. Over the past two years, I've been working on being my best, and feel I've made big improvements. 5 weeks ago, shortly after her getting a big raise, I noticed her not needing me emotionally anymore. She's always been very attention needy, so I knew something was wrong. I checked the phone records and discovered an hour/day phone relationship with a lawyer "friend". It quickly became her primary emotional relationship, and when confronted, she yelled at me for things in the past, and showed anger, not remorse. She's stated repeatedly that she "doesn't have much empathy", and that she "wants a man who would go to the ends of the Earth for her"- which I do. After asking the lawyer to stop talking with her, twice, with no reply, I threatened him with a lawsuit and he cut it off. Now she's angry at me, stringing me along with enough charm to get what she wants, and distant coldness, especially after intimacy. I could go on....but I'm trying to figure out if she is indeed on the spectrum of NPD or something else.

 Thanks much,

Suddenly Slapped

Dear Slapped,

    I would first like to say I do not hold a degree in psychiatry the only thing I can do is give advice from experience and help dig up some research.  Before I get into the research I would like to ask: “What in the hell are you doing with this woman”?  I see so many men stay in abusive relationships and I really need to understand this more.  I already understand why but are you seriously thinking of sticking around to salvage this train wreck?  It sounds to me like it doesn’t really matter how far on the spectrum she is with any disorder she is abusing you physically and financially. I was just participating in a conversation earlier in a group for people who support men who are abused.  This man posted a picture of what his girlfriend did to him.  I’m sure it started out with slaps but over time this escalated to being stabbed with a fork and onto a butcher knife.  He almost died!  This woman has also confessed to you that she has very little empathy, thank god she didn’t finish her dissertation in psychology.  My point is that this woman is toxic and I have seen from experience what an aggressive woman with no empathy is capable of.  They are capable of stabbing you, running you over with a car, and trying to smother you with a pillow in your sleep.  They will make your life a living hell and then tell the police and the courts that YOU were the aggressor.  You stated that you are a 200 pound man and I’m sure as soon as she turns on the water works the authorities will buy her story of self-defense.  Get away from her and make sure you document the crazy!

    As for how far on the spectrum she is According to the DSM-5 there are two criteria that must be filled to diagnose a person with a personality disorder.  Criterion A is used to test an individual’s level of personality functioning.  This is further diagnosed by assessing an individual’s pathological personality traits, Criterion B.  So if you are looking for how far down the spectrum your wife is you would want to ask how extreme her personality traits are.  It can be noted even by experts in the field of psychiatry that “numerous potential inconsistencies in the conceptualization of narcissism, including variants in describing its nature (normal, pathological), phenotype (grandiosity, vulnerability), expression (overt, covert), and structure (category, dimension, prototype). In all four of these areas of conceptualization, DSM descriptions of the concept have been limited.” (Skodol, Bender, & Morey 2014).  It is also noted in this article that there is very little research on narcissistic personality disorder, its manifestations, and treatment available.  As far as psychiatry is concerned the study of this personality disorder is lacking.  This is why you will find so many of these support groups and pages popping up all over the internet.  Victims of Narcissistic Abuse usually have no idea that they were abused or they blame themselves for the abuse and rationalize it away.  Moreover, the topic has such little research into it that when we do go to therapy we are further invalidated in our experiences. 

So what does it take to be diagnosed with NPD?

Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) - The DSM Criteria

Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD) is listed in the American Psychiatric Association’s Diagnostic & Statistical Manual (DSM) as an Axis II, Cluster B (dramatic, emotional, or erratic) Disorder:

A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behavior), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:

Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

Requires excessive admiration

Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes


I suggest visiting the above link.

There has been research springing up here and there that recognizes the need to further explore this personality disorder and the conclusion to a recent study was that “Conclusions: These findings suggest that DSM-IV criteria for narcissistic personality disorder are too narrow, underemphasizing aspects of personality and inner experience that are empirically central to the disorder. The richer and more differentiated view of narcissistic personality disorder suggested by this study may have treatment implications and may help bridge the gap between empirically and clinically derived concepts of the disorder.”(2008). This article goes on to say that “Despite its severity and stability (1 , 2) , narcissistic personality disorder is one of the least studied personality disorders.”

Attached is a useful study into the subject that will help you further explore what could be going on.

Regards,

Narcissist Problems

 By: Elsa Ronningstam
Harvard Medical School;

Pathological narcissism is characterized by fragility in self-regulation, self-esteem and sense of agency, accompanied by strong self-protective reactivity, emotion dysregulation, and a range of self-enhancing and self-serving behaviors and attitudes. Areas or periods of proactive and healthy narcissism coexist with pathological narcissism. Self-regulatory fluctuations and accompanying shifts in self-esteem are context dependent and affected by situational, that is, interpersonal or event triggered reactivity. The phenotypic presentations of pathological narcissism and NPD range from interpersonal pretentiousness, arrogance, and assertiveness, to insecurity, shyness, and hypersensitivity (Cooper, 1998; Russ et al., 2008). Notable is also that narcissistic individuals’ internal experiences may differ significantly from their overt behavior and descriptive accounts. From an attachment perspective narcissistic personality style and pathological narcissism are suggested to be anchored in a detached-dismissing pattern (disliking attachment to others and preferring investment in interpersonal space and own agency), or in an avoidant pattern (defensive self-sufficiency). In addition, sensitive, vulnerable narcissism has been associated with anxious or fearful preoccupied attachment style (aspiring attachment but anticipating disappointment or rejection; Fonagy, 2001; Dickinson & Pincus, 2003).


Grandiosity and accompanying self-enhancing and self-serving incentives and behavior are part of a self-regulatory spectrum of narcissistic personality functioning. Overt as well as covert signs of both grandiosity and vulnerability coexist and affect narcissistic personality functioning in each situation (Pincus & Lukowitsky, 2010). Sense of competence, control, standards, and achievements are crucial for self-evaluation and self-esteem (Zeigler-Hill, Myers, & Clark, 2010).

Self-agency conceptualizes the subjective awareness and ownership of goal setting, and planning, initiating, executing, and controlling one’s own thoughts, intentions, actions, and accomplishments (Fonagy, Gergely, Jurist, & Target, 2002; Gallagher, 2006; Knox, 2011). It signifies implicit as well as explicit initiation, mastery, and self-direction, and it is a fundamental part of self-regulation and self-esteem. As such self-agency is a potential base for evaluating self-esteem regulation including grandiosity and inferiority. In social-psychological studies of narcissism, self-agency has been introduced to conceptualize narcissistic interpersonal and self-regulatory strategies, such as attention seeking, competitiveness, and self-esteem-enhancing relationships (Foster & Brennan, 2011).

Psychoanalytic studies noted that the subjective experiences of fluctuating or loss of self-agency are especially consequential for people whose sense of self-worth is fragile and whose ability for interpersonal relatedness is compromised (Knox, 2011). Disturbance in self-agency is an essential part of psychopathology (Spengler, von Cramon, & Brass, 2009; Fonagy et al., 2010). For example, schizotypal traits correlate with deficits in prediction which lead to weaker sense of self-agency (Asai & Tanno, 2008; Asai, Sugimori, & Tanno, 2008). Discrepancies between predicted and actual action–effect connection contributed to decreased sense of agency (Sato & Yasuda, 2005; Spengler, von Cramon, & Brass, 2009), and perceived reduced control of events was associated with decreased experience of authorship/instigation (Aarts, Wegner, & Dijksterjuis, 2006).


A young man, Bob 21 years old, dropped out of college and was hospitalized with a range of problems: At the initial evaluation the clinician noticed general anxiety, obsessive–compulsive preoccupation, racing thoughts, social anxiety, avoidance, and suicidality. Family members and friends portrayed Bob to the case-manager as inconsiderate, demanding, and demeaning, with threatening and verbally aggressive behavior, and involved in poly substance abuse. Bob described himself as struggling with internal agony caused by his inconsistent cognitive intellectual functioning, and feeling overwhelmed by insecurity and internal self-criticism. He often felt frustrated with other people; he found them stupid, unpredictable, and difficult to understand. In addition, he had been isolating and engaged in Internet sex-dating where he felt safer and more in control compared with if he tried to meet somebody at bars and parties.

Bob also described the week before being hospitalized; on Friday he met with his professor and began outlining a project for a paper. He thought the meeting went well as he perceived that his ideas were well understood and appreciated by his professor, and he left feeling motivated and competent. On Sunday he spoke in front of 10,000 people at a big sports event at his college. Apparently he did a good job, both according to his own assessment and based on the others’ enthusiastic feedback. With a smile he admitted that he felt he could become a future president of the United States. On Tuesday he found himself unable to speak in front of his class of 8 peer students. It was his turn to present the outline of his project, and just before the class began he experienced sudden anxiety with difficulties holding on to logical thinking and reasoning. When he was about to begin he experienced a total cognitive blockage and had to leave the room. A day later he saw no future for himself and struggled with excruciating self-reproach and intense suicidal ideations and impulses. He admitted that he anticipated critical and “stupid” comments from his peers and feared the anticipation of exposing himself to something he could not control. Most of all, he felt unable to rely upon his own competence and dreaded a sudden loss of his ability to think and speak.

Bob was highly intelligent, with an IQ in the range between 140 and 150. Some even considered him to be a genius, although he himself did not believe that, but he appreciated the admiration and acknowledgment. He was a competitive swimmer and leader of his swim team, and had encountered no problems with either swimming or team leadership. He had overall done well in college, especially on exams, and received high grades despite some inconsistencies. His professional aspirations and plan was to become a lawyer like his grand-father. He met 8 of the 9 Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, fourth edition (DSM–IV) and fifth edition (DSM-5) criteria for NPD (not #6, interpersonal exploitive) according to the Diagnostic Interview for DSM–IV Personality Disorders, DIPD-IV (Zanarini, Frankenburg, Sickel, & Young, 1996).

After having presented this rather diverse set of experiences Bob said to the therapist: “I cannot trust my faculties, I do not know from one day to another whether I can rely on my thinking and reasoning, access my knowledge, communicate, and perform. I struggle inside myself with dreadful self-scolding, constantly comparing and criticizing myself. I am a perfectionist, and I know that I can be very good, even exceptional. I have been considered a genius, but it does not hold up. I can’t tolerate closer contact with people. I get so angry and frustrated at them. I can see that I may be unfair, at times . . . , but I just can’t stand it. It works much better when I am in charge or if there is a distance to other people, like if I have a large audience. I feel extremely afraid of the future and ashamed of having to be in treatment. Some days I really doubt that anything can change or that I can get help, other days I can feel more optimistic”.


Bob presented with areas and moments of real potentials, consistent competence, and proactive interpersonal functioning, that is, as a swimmer and team leader, and in individual academic performance and interactions with his supervisors. On the exceptional side was his ability to speak in front of large audiences. He had both unrealistic grandiose fantasies as well as real age-appropriate professional aspirations. He came across as confident and self-promoting, alternating between bragging and a disdainful attitude. However, internally he struggled with extreme self-criticism, self-doubt (the reverse side of perfectionism), and interpersonal insecurity when facing close and intimate or collaborative interactions with peers, as if they tend to become critical enemies. However, this most consequential vulnerability was not triggered in his physical sport activities, only in his intellectual academic activities. In terms of self-agency, Bob was unable to integrate and regulate perceptions of challenges, failures, and interpersonal limitations with his actual competence and real abilities. From a self-regulatory perspective he used perfectionism and avoidance as well as substances to enhance self-esteem, and sense of control and to modulate self-criticism, fear, and anxiety. Apparently he had reached a point where he faced a rapid and extreme downhill spiral. High ambitions, perfectionism, and intermittent experiences of competence and even exceptional abilities under certain circumstances, turned into escalating interpersonal intolerance and fear, insecurity, distancing and avoidance, self-criticism and self-scolding, with substance usage and suicidality.


Although grandiosity is a diagnostic hallmark for NPD, and an indication of the pathological grandiose self (Kernberg, 1975), its complexity and changeability suggest that the diagnosis of NPD should not depend heavily on overt indications of grandiosity (Ronningstam, Gunderson, & Lyons, 1995). State-dependent signs or temporary reactive increase of grandiosity can alter or coexist with more persistent overt or covert grandiose self-experience, as well as with more proactive or authentic functioning. Given narcissistic patients’ identity diffusion and difficulties knowing who they are, identifying and differentiating their real competence, assets, and accomplishments from exaggerated or non-existing achievement and wished for talents are important. Equally important is the differentiation of their age appropriate ambitions and proactive aspiration from high-flying or unrealistic fantasies. It is not uncommon that patients with NPD struggle with uncertainty, shame, excessive self-criticism, and insecurity related to their actual talents, value and competence, parallel with an enhanced self-presentation, especially if they are young. Like in the case of Bob, it is also important to acknowledge areas of actual individual uniqueness and special talents or potentials as part of the overall self-regulatory functioning. In addition, encouraging patients’ own narrative, especially describing moments when they experience incompetence, inferiority, and fragility, is also a most essential part of the diagnostic process. The shifts in self-esteem from grandeur to inferior or vice versa with accompanying self-regulatory change in self-enhancement and self-devaluation are most informative. The subjective experiences of those interpersonal or situational conditions that cause such shifts are diagnostic hallmark for pathological narcissism and NPD (Ronningstam, 2012a, 2013).

Diagnostic evaluation and treatment tend to mobilize self-protection and control in people with narcissistic personality functioning. Some can be extremely and effectively defensive, focusing on details or seemingly relevant issues while avoiding more urgent or deeper and challenging problems. Others can mobilize plasticity and adjustment, agreeing and following along, and still others can get argumentative, aggressive, and critical. Although on the surface intelligent and articulated, even with moments of perspective-taking and reflection, these people also present with a significant resistance or inability to deeply connect, attach, and change. Doubts, shame and insecurity, confused self-identity, and self-criticism, combined with a range of self-enhancing strategies, contribute to their sometimes drastic self-regulatory interpersonal stands.

A conditional and limited alliance is unfolding, that can seem collaborative and interactive with common language, and even with processing of challenging inquiries and complex interpretations. However, the patients’ motive for seeking help and experience of facing treatment may be totally separated from acknowledging their problems and work toward changes or modifications of problematic areas functioning. Their reputation of being difficult to treat, or even untreatable, stems from a particularly complex and constricting mental functioning. Clinical observation and empirical findings indicate compromised functioning and impaired abilities behind the NPD diagnostic traits that indeed underpin pathological narcissism and contribute to the specific internal and interpersonal regulatory patterns. Awareness and integration of these factors in the diagnostic process is crucial for gaining a meaningful identification of the narcissistic patient.


The first set of such factors concerns the ability to access, process, and identify emotions. Studies have shown that both defensive and compromised emotional functioning influence self-regulation in people with pathological narcissism or NPD (Model, 1975; Krystal, 1998). Avoidance of emotions, especially fear of failure and humiliation, is considered a motivating, self-regulatory strategy (Bélanger et al., 2012). Vigilance, sensitivity, and reactivity to negative events and anticipation of humiliation (Besser & Zeigler-Hill, 2010) can coexist with emotion intolerance and difficulties processing feelings, in particular fear and shame. Fear, recognized in both psychoanalytic and empirical studies as essential in pathological narcissism, is also underlying several management and avoidance strategies typical for narcissistic personality functioning, such as competitiveness, perfectionism, risk-taking, and procrastination (Ronningstam & Baskin-Sommers, 2013). Shame also plays a significant role, especially in narcissistic interpersonal relating, and can motivate avoidance as well as defensive, retaliatory anger to regain agency and control (Tangney, 1995; Trumbull, 2003).

Compromised emotion recognition, that is, impaired accuracy in recognizing facial emotional expressions in others, especially fear and disgust (Marissen, Deen, & Franken, 2012), weaken the narcissistic patient’s ability for interpersonal guidance and information processing. Similarly, alexithymia, that is, the inability to feel and identify own feelings, either because of unawareness or incapacity to distinguish physical and affect states or because of lacking words for emotions (Krystal, 1998) can also impede on the ability to recognize emotions in others (Fan et al., 2011).

Studies of empathic deficits, another outstanding feature of NPD, have raised the question whether motivation/self-regulation or actual deficits, or both, contribute to compromised empathic ability. Impairment in emotional empathic ability was found in patients diagnosed with NPD (Ritter et al., 2011). Although their cognitive emphatic ability was intact and influenced by motivation, their emotional empathic functioning was affected by compromised ability for mirroring and responsiveness to the emotional states of others. On the other hand, NPD patients’ failure to accurately recognize emotions in others combined with overestimation of their own empathic ability indicates a more general empathic deficit (Marissen, Deen, & Franken, 2012). Emotion intolerance may also play a role in empathic ability as the person may be able to notice feelings in others, as mentioned above, but the perception of others’ feeling states can evoke overwhelming powerlessness, disgust, shame or loss of internal control, and hence trigger strong aggressive reactions or emotional or physical withdrawal (Ronningstam, 2009). In addition, noticeable fluctuations in narcissistic patients’ empathic ability may be influenced by self-regulation, with increased ability to empathize when feeling confident and in control, and decreased ability when feeling exposed, inferior or threatened.


The specific attachment pattern associated with pathological narcissism and NPD, as mentioned above, contributes to a second set of factors involving significant difficulties relating and connecting, especially in ways that can promote change (Kernberg, 2007). NPD patients often do not know who they are on a deeper level, and their identity is influenced by more profound and persistent self-enhancing efforts. Difficulties with dependency and mutuality and strong tendencies for avoidance and control are also, like in the case of Bob’s choice of intimacy via Internet, typical indicators of compromised interpersonal functioning (Kernberg, 1998). Perfectionism is such an effort because it involves both exceptionally high or inflexible (although inconsistent) ideals and standards of self or others, with strong reactions, including aggression, harsh self-criticism, shame, fear, or deceitfulness when self or others fail to measure up (Hewitt et al., 2008; Ronningstam, 2010). In interpersonal and social situations perfectionism can be self-promoting to enhance certain qualities, but it can also be self-protective and serve to hide something non-perfect. On the other hand, self-prescribed perfectionism can contribute to extremely unyielding self-criticism, like in the case of Bob, with hypervigilance and automatic cognitive appraisal of interpersonal situations as overly provocative or threatening. Especially, it contributes to reluctance to acknowledge and being seen as imperfect, and hence, to seek help for own distress and to integrate and benefit from treatment interventions.

Impaired ability for self-disclosure, self-silencing, selective or noncommunicativeness, and inability to share feelings and thoughts (Model, 1980; Besser, Flett, & Davis, 2003) are all aspects of narcissistic pathology that contribute to diagnostic challenges. Similarly, reversible perspective taking (Etchegoyen, 1999), the tendency to smoothly adopt the therapist’s comments and interpretations and seemingly internalize those given perspective without changing one’s own, and without incorporating the therapeutic process to generate change in own personality functioning, is yet another complicating defensive feature.


A third set of factors relates to the specific psychological aspects of trauma that can reinforce pathological narcissistic functioning. A narcissistic trauma is caused by a subjective experience of loss of supportive or sustaining external life conditions, such as changes in marriage/family, work and career, or financial situation, or loss of connection to a good, supportive idealized other person, leading to a loss or distortion of internal ideals and meaning. Sudden loss of a sense of control and competence, like in the case of Bob, can also be traumatizing for people whose self-esteem is strongly connected with performance and achievement. Such losses cause an acute internal state that threatens the continuity, coherence, stability, and wellbeing of the self (Maldonado, 2006). Narcissistic self-protection aimed at organizing and understanding the traumatic experience fail, and the sense of loss, rejection, and abandonment, along with feelings of shame, fear, and worthlessness become overwhelming (Gerzi, 2005). A narcissistic trauma is more subjective and self-esteem related, and involving exposure and humiliation. Sometimes such trauma can even be entirely emotional and internal, accompanied by compromised hope, sense of value, control, meaning, and affiliation. This contrasts to more external obvious traumatic experiences, such as physical attacks, abuse, accidents, and so forth. Narcissistic trauma, like in Trauma Associated Narcissistic Symptoms, TANS (Simon, 2002) can be intrinsic to the characterological vulnerability to disruption of self-regulation, and loss of agency and self-esteem in NPD. On the other hand, narcissistic traumas, experienced in young age, can also be deeply internalized and subjectively organized in a narcissistic patient’s mind, contributing to an armor-like, seemingly impenetrable narcissistic character functioning, with denial, omnipotence, and organizing and protecting narcissistic fantasies, covering split off shame and fear. These types of traumatic experiences may easily be either misdiagnosed or bypassed in a diagnostic evaluation as they often differ from standard psychiatric definitions of trauma involving abuse, neglect, catastrophes, and so forth (Ronningstam, 2012b; Simon, 2002; Krystal, 1998) and can remain effectively shielded. Facing the impact of external life events might actually help some patients to begin to access and process such subjectively internalized experiences.


This study has focused on identifying underpinnings and self-regulatory patterns behind the diagnostic traits for NPD. A flexible, exploratory, and collaborative diagnostic process is recommended that attends to the patients’ internal experiences and motivations as well as to their external and interpersonal functioning. The patients’ limitations and compromised abilities, as well as their interpersonally provocative, although sometimes quite elaborative self-regulatory and enhancing strategies should be attended to in ways that are informative and meaningful for both the patient and clinician. Identifying and differentiating healthy or protective aspects of narcissistic patterns from those that are pathological and perpetuating is important. Clarifying the threatening, injuring, or traumatic experiences and situations that escalate narcissistic reactivity is equally essential. Clinicians’ observations of the narcissistic patients’ functioning often do not concur with the patients’ own experiences of themselves or formulations of their problems. More detailed exploration of a recent event that caused fluctuations in the patient’s self-esteem and agency can be a useful start. Such exploration can provide the opportunity to clarify the patient’s internal subjective perspective, needs, and motives for self-enhancement, experiences of vulnerability and deflation, and the organizing and protective role of narcissistic functioning, both internally in relation to self and in relationship to others. A focus on these areas of functioning is in line with the Workgroups proposal for personality functioning in DSM-5 Section III, which includes identity (regulation of self and emotions), self-direction (self-agency), empathy and intimacy (interpersonal relatedness). With regard to the diagnosis of NPD, these changes represent significant improvement compared with the entirely trait-based diagnosis. Encouraging self-assessment and the patients’ own narratives of their performance, anticipations, aspirations, and shifts in states, self-esteem, and emotions can begin to bridge the different perspectives of the patient and the clinician, and help reaching a diagnostic agreement and understanding of the patient’s functioning.


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Source: Personality Disorders: Theory, Research, and Treatment. Vol. 5. (4), Oct, 2014 pp. 434-438)
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Russ, E., Shedler, J., Bradley, R., & Westen, D. (2008). Refining the Construct of Narcissistic Personality Disorder: Diagnostic Criteria and Subtypes. American Journal of Psychiatry AJP, 165(11), 1473-1481. http://dx.doi.org/10.1176/appi.ajp.2008.07030376

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July 7, 2015

Dear Narcissist Problems "Monster-In-Law"


Dear Narcissist Problems,

      I am in a situation that is not good, to say the least. I will give as little background as possible. I've been married to my husband for 20 years. I used to really like and respect his parents.  Over time, I saw little glimpses of passive aggression on his mother’s part. I normally noticed the passive aggressive behavior when we would visit his parents over a weekend. My husband always got along great with his family. From time to time he would comment about his mother’s favoritism toward certain others. When our first child was 2-3 years old I began to see a competition that she was attempting to build between me and my child and also between her first grandchild and her son. They are 6 months apart in age. When I noticed the favoritism and resulting rivalry I grew frustrated. I asked her to stop, Naive me.  I mentioned the favoritism was bound to be hurtful as the kids grew older and more aware. She then came down harder! I then told her we would stop coming to her home if she didn't stop. I then let her know that she would be more than welcome to come to our home to visit but we wouldn't tolerate any mind games. The rules in our home are kindness and encouragement. Since then I have been enemy number one with this woman. Well, it was ok as time went by due to low contact. I am usually chasing our kids around as we had two more children. We visited them. We helped them out. Never seen or heard about their other kids or grandkids doing anything to help.

By the way, 16 months ago, my husband was injured. We had relocated about 8 months prior because of my husband’s new job. I stayed at home for ten years and also homeschooled. So, my husband tells me we are going back north, we will stay with them no more than 2 months!! The crap started on day 3. I felt like I was in the twilight zone. Over 6 months, I was harassed. I was bullied. Mostly passive aggressively and a lot of it was done loudly over the phone while she was speaking to two of her daughters. They'd visit and talk about us!! My father in law and husband stood up to her which made things worse. I was the target of a smear campaign. The kids were used and abused. Hurt!! Shattered their beliefs. She doted on our 2 year old though. Her 3 daughters pulled a surprise “intervention” where I was attacked verbally. I got blamed for everything because I had finally defended myself and my children. They promised to "communicate" more and we still have not spoken- 10 months later. Our lives (No one’s business!!!) were discussed like it's their business. In the end. No one apologized to me. To us. Nothing was validated. I just had to suck it up, cuz this is just the way it is!

Well, it got a little “better" –manageable, for 8 months. She'd act differently, around others. Some passive aggressive behaviors off and on.  Suddenly, a week before mother’s day and 2 weeks before my birthday, she just yelled “I’m not doing this phony shit anymore." I decided I was not going near her again. I am officially done! One day my father in law had an appointment an hour away. He is 83 years old and needs company and some assistance. Our older girls needed one of us home for the bus. So, since I refuse to be alone in the house with her (as she's a dangerous, lying, manipulative sort. I put nothing past her!) I was going to go to the appointment with my 3 year old. Well, when my 3 year old told her (after being questioned about details) daddy wasn't going... She lost it!! Stomped over to her husband and started ranting. Calling me a bitch! I went up, got my child. Told her she was “such a loving grandma”. We didn't go. Any of us. She started the rant to upset pops. He was so mad at her. Riled up. She manipulated my children's dental appointment, so they couldn't go. She ruined our Mother's Day plans. (Too much detail to go into) I just stay away.

She realized she couldn't get to me. So, now she's using my children. Attacking my 10 year old by accusing my daughter of giving her “dirty looks" when we were outside earlier that day. Truth was... Narc had stood in the window. I saw her. I ignored her. My oldest looked up, and said, “Mom, she's looking at us so meanly. It's creepy" I told her, “don’t look". We kept blowing bubbles and then I took the girls for a walk. So, my 10 year old told her she was not giving her dirty looks. Narc started yelling, “Well your mothers a god damn liar! Go look at her Facebook!" My daughter asked her why she'd be snooping around my Facebook anyway. That irked her even more. She started yelling. I told my husband something was wrong. He went up, and I heard my girl yell “stop!", and then I heard her crying! Grandma said she was going to call the police and (lie, obviously) say I “put my hands on her". Whatever that means... I don't know. It's disturbing and more so because she threatened it to my daughter then to my husband.

Next day, we crossed paths. She put my 3 year old on the phone with her mini me narc/sociopath daughter, when I was calling her to come. This is the daughter that fuels the fire. She also stalks me on fb through false identities. She saw my cover photo was about narcissism and had been reporting to mom, they began to “assume" these quotes were about them. Go figure! So, I went over and got my girl. Took the phone away from my daughter and went to hand it to the narc. She said there and pointed at “her chair"(her thrown, situated to see everything in the house) and I can't even explain the evil I saw on her face. I just dropped the phone in the chair next to her. She exploded!! Calling me a bitch. A dumb Pollock. A fat ass! Said she'd “fix me! Write an fb post all about me and my mother. (Whom she doesn't know or anything about, it's just that the two narcs thought I was “writing about them" by posting narc quotes! Sooooo crazy and twisted. In their minds, I'm exposing them though. I've never written a word. Not a name, nothing! She did all this while I was holding the baby and the other two heard it!! My husband and father in law jumped in, defending me.

 Next day, my husband allowed my 3 year old near her. He thought his dad was up. I came out of our bathroom and hear her loud, obnoxious, cackling, and conspiring voice (I was intended to hear). I knew pops was not present. I looked around and my husband came in the door. I asked where our girl was (other 2 at last day of school) he went up. Found her alone in the narcs bathroom. Door closed. Water running. The narc has refused to child proof or safety anything. Ever! Poison under cabinets, open. You cannot trust a child!! She didn't care where she was. She was too busy trying to stick it to me on the phone with her minion. They came down, and played “memory" with her. While playing, she says “gramma said something about you". My alarm went off in my head. I smiled still and asked what it was. She said, I was at the table eating nuts and Gramma said “I don't want you to be like your mother. I don't like her.” “Get the F out, you bastard. Poopy head"! I said, oh. That wasn't very nice. I let it go. I called my husband in then I asked my child if she could please tell her dad what she just told me. She did. Just about word for word. She thought maybe it could've been the “bitch" word. After all, she's heard that a few times from her. Well, I don't want her near her!!  My situation it's close to impossible. We have a couple months stuck here. So, she started inviting the other two children up for ice cream. After 16 months of maybe doing that 3 other times. On purpose she will keep them talking when we call for them. She says passive aggressive things, regarding me. She tells my youngest “secrets" and we've asked her not to. Anything we ask (only been a couple things) her to not do... She does more.

I am leaving out so much. Yet, it's a novella. Sorry.
I just want a basic opinion of what I should do till I can get out of here.
Today, I kept the children busy, outside mostly.
The older ones don't even want to be near her. But hey, they like treats. Her new ploy to get them to think she's ok and therefore I'm “bad". They told me they don't want them anymore. Her treats. It kills me.

I'm trying to not be angry and just allow my baby to see the differences herself.
She said (as we've discussed) if gramma says anything about mommy she'll tell her to STOP. Don't talk about my mommy. And leave. It is heartbreaking. For us. For our children.

When we got here, Easter was shortly after. My youngest was 2, this was huge to her. Since Easter 2014, Narc Grandma has left candy and small gifts for her EVERYDAY from “the Easter bunny" Not the two older children which we had to make excuses for and expect them to “get it". In retrospect, I see it was to get my daughter excited to go up there every morning. She left it near her! I didn't like this from the beginning. I think it is spoiling. It excluded the others. It kind of takes the specialness away. And most of all ... The candy!!! She started leaving more and more. And it's daily! For a little girls soft teeth. In addition to all the ice cream she gives her. Cookies. Etc. Without asking!! My husband asked her to stop. She refused. Kept it coming. She is sneaky about it. Leaving small things the next day. Next day, more. Etc. If he called her on it, it's twisted into an argument! Our youngest had two cavities forming last fall!! The other two never had that. I can't blame this entirely on the candy and treats, but it sure didn't help. I had my husband explain to her that our child had to lay under a weighted blanket, for safety, and have strangers drill her teeth. Etc. It slowed a few days. After the traumatic visit, she did the same. Potato chips, coloring book, and pretzels. It always goes back to candy! I made the mistake of talking to her about “perhaps it should stop” as we can't do this forever. She lost it. It drove her to do more! Now, 6 months later, my girl has FOUR more small cavities!!!! We go again next week!! My husband put his foot down, nicely even!! She lasted 2 days then refused! Laughed at him but he stayed patient.  He went out and bought 3 bags of sugar free candy then gave it to his mother and said this was the best for her. (Never mind just stopping) Next day, she got out flavored tootsie rolls!!! My husband was upset and then she huffed and puffed. Poor her!!! Left out other things a few days. Small items. Chips or horrible orange crackers! Ugh Now she's sneaking candy in too!!! Everything is a damn game! My child “she adores", is a game? Her teeth!! I'm brushing 4 times a day!!

My oldest made honor roll her first trimester this school year, her first year in public school, and she did it while adjusting to middle school!!
She was met with attitude by gramma.
She got a lot of attention and praise from gramp. Which drives gram nuts!!! So jealous!
Next trimester, she got high honors! Same thing. We laugh about it together now.
But it is really sad.
Last trimester, same, high honors. Lowest grade 1 A- in technology.
The woman didn't acknowledge it, just a joker’s smile.
Quickly, she brings up her great grandson (6 months younger) and discounts my daughters accomplishments by announcing he will be taking 8th grade math in 6th grade.
She makes similar comparisons often. She never even sees this grandson. She just makes stuff up or uses info to compare.

When our daughters began school here, she praised it! Made “concerned" comments about being Homeschooled and maybe they wouldn't keep up!?
So, when they excelled she then said our neighbors (she talks to one once a year and the others two or three)

 “They don’t send their kids to the school”.

They “have no need for it.”

 One neighbor sends her twins to catholic school in Brattleboro. She works near there. The other sends her son to a catholic school near the college she works for. The truth, both have jobs and need after school care. Both schools provide it and both families don't care for “common core". That's it. The reasons. Can't tell her though. It's just funny how everything we do is subpar. She is sneaky and everyone is used for a purpose. Once, we were visiting. As we left, my husband told her we'd call when we arrived home. We lived up the mountain and an hour away (blissfully). He informed her we'd stop to pick up pizza and lottery tickets. So it'd be an hour. Don't worry.

So, he says “I’d love to win. I'd give some to everyone in the family.”

 (Meaning them, his sisters. Nieces)

The narc replies. “We talk about that too. We'd split most up between you 4 kids, and 2 nieces.

 Mind you. She just left out our 3 children and his oldest daughter but mentioned the other two grandchildren!!

My husband was like “huh?" “What about all your grandchildren?”

She says, “Oh they're too young. You could share yours with them!"

Husband, “It's not the point. It's not the money. It's the shitty comment that shows what we always knew.

 He says “what about my oldest"?

Grandma “oh well. Ok. Her too"!

Further, we are also the scapegoat family. We are good people and I’m tired of being doormats. We are the only ones who have ever helped them!  When we used her kitchen when we were living there she was so aggressive. Flying into the kitchen, no need. Bullying me. I'd be washing dishes (theirs also) and ours I'd go to dry. Hers, I'd stack for the dishwasher!! So, she'd come in and grab the faucet and turn to the other sink to use it, while I was in the middle of rinsing!!!

She'd make loud comments like “excuse me!!"

Not in a nice way. I was next to the oven one day. My hip in front of the oven. Which, I didn't realize. Till she came in and busied herself around me angrily. A bullying presence. She opened the oven door and it slammed into my hip. She did not even need anything! - By this time, my husband and father in law were aware of her games and tactics. They were watching.

She said. “So sorry!!” (When she hit me) “…move your littttllleeee ass out of my way” (snickering, like it's large, it is not btw).

 I moved then she walked away so I resumed. She then came back and elbowed me.

She says “you and your fat ass are always in the way.”

 So, I finally commented “at least mine doesn't sag to the ground".

It became unbearable. Just nonstop games. Intimidating. It was awful. So, I just realized she's a narcissist this past May around Mother's Day. When she pulled the bullshit, again!  Poor her, she wasn't going to be a “phony" anymore. So close to Mother's Day and my birthday. I thought, “narcissistic". So, I looked it up. Took a “test". 19 out of 20 was her!! I started looking for groups. Talking to others. The similarities, startling.
What do you think??

Sincerely,

“Monster in Law”

******************************TRIGGER WARNING******************************

I know I’m going to hear from a few thousand women who happen to be grandmothers and possibly dealing with a narcissistic daughter in law, this advice had nothing to do with your specific situation...  If you are the grandmother I have just described consider not reading any further.  The advice I am about to give is geared toward a woman who is dealing with a mother in law from hell and no two situations are alike so please do not message me later to let me know that this poor daughter in law should be grateful the in-laws took them in.  I’m willing to bet they paid more than their fair share of bills while rooming with grandma.  Before following through with the urge to tell me I am wrong.  Remind yourself that you were warned not to read below this line.  In my line of work I’ve dealt with more than my fair share of narcissistic grandmothers so just save the insults and bashing because they will not be welcome here.  Offer advice yes but don’t come here looking for a fight to pick because you will quickly be *deleted*   Thank you!

***********************YOU HAVE OFFICIALLY BEEN WARNED***********************

Dear “Monster in Law”,

What do I think???? I think you have been living with my mother!  The first thing I would like to say is that with a normal family if you need help, they help you.  Normal people do not offer “help” as a means to abuse you more.  I know there is a grandma out there shaking her head because you and your family needed “help” in the first place.  If you are that grandma, keep in mind generations of families used to live together without being emotionally, psychologically, verbally, or bordering on physical assault.  Sweet baby Jesus, I think your post was a trigger for me as I find myself defending myself before I have even uttered a word of advice!  Now we all know, Narcissist Problems has a narcissist as a mother!  So let me share my years of experience! (33 years to be exact).  I know I told you I was working on this last week but I had to prepare myself mentally for this challenge (Trigger).  So the moral of the story is that in your gut you always new Narc In-law was a little off but you couldn’t put your finger on it until you were in your weakest moment.  The others don’t visit grandma because she does the same things to them.  The two on the phone all the time who held the “intervention” stick around because I’m guessing they are the golden children but they would probably tear each other’s eye balls out if given the chance.  You were at your most vulnerable and the poo hit the fan. 

            My first advice, since you have already moved away, is to create a new Facebook account and don’t add any of them.  In fact, block them….ALL OF THEM.  I would create a profile and use a nickname instead of your real name.  I also would not share any pictures of yourself or your kids.  With that said lets dive on in to the real advice.

            What do I think? I think that all narcissists have definitely read the same instruction Manuel.  My narcs favorite holiday was Easter too, imagine that!  I have young children and her favorite thing to do was to load them up with candy!  I went through the same experience where my mother would give my oldest son (her favorite) Candy, cakes, soda, and anything else his little 3 year old body desired.  When I objected to this for obvious reasons it was met as a challenge.  They try to play it off by saying things like “but they like it…” “But they are just kids” as if we are being monsters and their behavior of sneaking sweets is cute and charming and how dare us for objecting.  It wouldn’t be a problem is the treats were given in moderation.  The problem is that they are not.  As most normal people know, especially parents, sugar can be a very harmful substance for bodies young and old.  My son too had numerous cavities.  The sick part is when you tell them the pain your child had to experience and the trauma of being tied down to have their baby teeth drilled on, they don’t even care!!!  They don’t care about the child’s pain.  That is why you, as the child’s mother, needs to protect the child from grandma.  If Grandma is repeatedly asked to stop a behavior that is harming your child its time to put your foot down.

            Let me say you handled the situation very well by saying “If you continue this bad behavior then this will be the consequence”.  The consequence being less visits and low contact.  The problem occurred when you made this ultimatum and then you needed their help.  When this happened you opened the gates of hell.  You can’t simply play with the low/no contact button.  We like to think of a narcissist as a child because they behave as one a lot but this is false logic on our parts.  When a child is in trouble and threatened with a consequence of bad behavior or is actually punished, they feel bad.  Children try to make things better.  Narcissists do the opposite.  When a narcissist is threatened with a consequence of a bad behavior “GAME ON!!”  The last one standing is the winner.  If they actually suffer the consequence all hell breaks lose and they become a helpless victim of your irrationality.  What happens when we threaten a consequence of bad behavior, punish the bad behavior with the consequence, and then ultimately with draw the enforced consequence?  Hell hath no fury.  The words you so eloquently put “I became enemy number one”.  You got that right sister and there is no changing it now!  One cannot simply play with the consequence button.  You have two options now; extremely low contact or no contact.  If you try the low contact you must enforce the consequence of the bad behavior right away.  If that doesn’t help the situation make the contact lower and lower until there is none left at all.  One there is no contact you can’t ever go back.  It’s no contact FOREVER.  You will then be faced with a multitude of flying monkeys.  You know the daughters that are told of all your short comings and your “fat ass”.  Then if they know anyone you know, like friends or neighbors, expect them too.  They might not be aware that they are being used as spies and messengers but they are.  You may end up cutting all those people out of your life as well.  The goal here is to surround yourself with people who are supportive, caring, and don’t play games.  You want real relationships of value.  You can’t have these things with a narcissist or their flying monkeys.

            Now when grandma threatened to file the false assault report on you I would have taken her seriously because these old bats know they can get away with it!  That right there is a threat to your freedom because it can land you behind bars innocent or not.  My narcissist, when threatened and punished with the consequences of bad behavior, began to take pictures of my child (her favorite) every time he got hurt.  After we began low contract if my child was hurt on our next visit she would take my child aside and sneak in a quick photo of the injury.  When we were almost no contact my narcissist tried to use these photos to build a grandparent rights case against me.  Grandma began filing false reports to child protective services for abuse as well.  When they make threats that they are going to file a false police report because they are not getting their way, believe them!  Protect yourself and protect your children from the harm that can result from a false report.  You will find yourself under investigation with the narcissist’s word and their stack of pictures in no time.  God help you then.   Trust me, I’ve been there and it isn’t pretty.  You may be innocent but you will be hiring lawyers, getting psychiatric evaluations, and lord knows what else because of the story they concocted.  Don’t let this happen to you.  Enforce your boundaries.  Do not feel bad about it.  I do not need to rehash through your whole post of the reasons why your monster in law is a narcissist, the post speaks volumes.  My advice is to make sure you are familiar with your state laws on grandparent’s rights.  Don’t leave your children alone with her EVER.  Get a free consultation with a family lawyer about the situation.  If she makes threats take them seriously.  Lastly, DOCUMENT THE CRAZY.  Keep a journal of every encounter, times, dates, and witnesses because you never know what kind of crazy she will pull. I know a lot of people say “I’m not going to tell you to go no contact or low contact because this is a decision you need to make”.  The woman you are dealing with does not understand what a boundary is.  Not only does she not understand, if she does, she doesn’t care.  People like this do not change.  There is nothing you can do to magically make them respect you, your children, or your property.  Get into therapy, go no contact, and if you need to leave the city/state if she continues to cross the line.  Moreover, call the police if she shows up uninvited and get a restraining order if need be.  Whatever you do, don’t let this continue.  If you have to work five jobs do what you need just to make sure you NEVER need her help again for the rest of your life!  Good Luck to you!

Regards,

Narcissist Problems

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